Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/07 10:11
Thanks for the added perspective, guys.
You've added some great insights to this discussion that I believe should help others to understand the personal choices involved in choosing to move to Open or stay in Am.
I know nobody asked, but here's my own story nonetheless:
I started playing in 2004, and competing in sanctioned events in 2006. I didn't bother with AM2 or Am1 since I already qualified for Advanced Masters, so that's been my home division and I feel quite comfortable there. Since I grew up playing freestyle, the mechanics of throwing were already second-nature and only required a bit of fine tuning before I was ripping drives and parking (and sometimes canning) upshots.
First event: last cash, second event: 6th place, third event: WIN! My game has gone down and up since then with a couple of seconds, a third, a couple of fourths, a WHOLE LOT of sucking, and then another win at the last Otter Open (which I frankly think could have been anyone's, given the conditions).
I personally feel like I fall pretty much into Jack's category of "natural talent enough to dominate the Advanced divisions, but not enough love of the game to want to work to be competitive at the next level", except my talent isn't enough to actually "dominate", just rise to the top every once and a while when my game is on. Also, it isn't as much not having enough love for the game, as Jack says, as it is not having the time to practice, like Stan says, that keeps me from advancing my game to the next level.
So, while I have placed well in several events and even won two, I don't think it's yet time for me to make the move to the next level. It's mainly my putting that I need to work on to gain some consistency there (sound familiar anyone?) before I feel that my game is good enough to compete against the "big boys".
If I can ever start making the time to practice, you can rest assured I'll be moving to Open because I think that I'd then be good enough to be competitive there, but until then my game is just too unreliable, and I'd just be constantly donating all my entries to... aw heck, you know who those guys are (Steve, I think you're one of them.)
Thanks again for your input to this discussion,
- JPB
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Everett Lyons
Master
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/07 11:57
I’m glad to see different people chime in on this. Especially some of the guys who have been around the sport for awhile. Stan, that was a great perspective. Thanks also, Steve and Jack.
This is my second year in the PDGA. Last year, I competed in AM2, and ADV Masters. I didn’t cash in either. Seemed like AM2 is where “young guns” start…and why not? That’s what I’d do, I think. “Rec” kinda means “not competing”, to me, so I didn’t feel that was the place for me. Then, I tried in ADV Masters, and still only finished in the bottom third of the pack. So what’s an old gun to do? Well, I busted my butt at the putting basket, and in the field, trying to improve my putting and driving, and now I can sometimes get into the top third (and did get my first trophy at the 2008 Otter Open, 3rd place), but now the 39-year-old AM1 veterans are now eligible to play Adv Masters, and doing so. That is their right.
Q1: So what should the top rating be for Adv Masters? Is it 970, just like AM1? That doesn’t seem right. There doesn’t seem to be a division for new “older guys”. At least one where we have a chance of winning.
Q2: how many 1st place trophies does it take to signal that it’s time to step up?
So, should we stay home, and let the baggers have it? I’ve considered that. Why should I keep contributing prize money for someone else? Now, if we forced the >935 guys to step up, at least they could play Open Masters or Am1. Maybe they would choose not to participate. But at least they could gaze up at their lovely shelf of 20+ trophies...maybe wax and polish them.
Who should stay home? The guy trying to get his 10th 1st place trophy? Or the guy who can’t seem to win anywhere he plays because of the baggers? Scott and I have been talking about an Intermediate Master division. Does that make sense?
BTW: James. I appreciate your imput. I think you "are" in the correct division. I am not talking about the guys with your rating. If you had a >935 rating, I'd be talking about you also.
Thanks for reading. And thanks to all who responded.
-Everett
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Steve Lonhart
Legend
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/07 12:35
Hi Everett,
Regarding "who should stay home?"--I say no one! Play disc golf, bring your kids/family and enjoy being outside. Regarding tournaments, pick the right level (i.e. A, B, C tier or non-sanctioned) and be prepared for how competition changes with different tiers.
"Q1: So what should the top rating be for Adv Masters? Is it 970, just like AM1? That doesn’t seem right. There doesn’t seem to be a division for new “older guys”. At least one where we have a chance of winning."
You bring up a good point. For guys starting later in life, it's disheartening to play against perennial AM-baggers that now qualify for AM Masters. I like the idea of AM Masters II, and this will really become an issue as the sport both grows AND ages... There will always be people who cannot work on their game but still want to play tournaments, and there will also be older newcomers. To lump them with a few AM I aged-in players is not really a fun prospect. I would not be surprised that by 2015 there is an AM Master II division.
"Q2: how many 1st place trophies does it take to signal that it’s time to step up? " That really depends on the person. I was fortunate enough to win three events in 2005. But the highlight, even more than doing well at Worlds, was winning AM I at the Masters Cup on my home course. I'd seen Jon Baldwin win in 2003 and Myles Harding win in 2002 and was inspired. Once that goal had been accomplished, I figured I might as well go to Pro. But I opted to take the "accept cash" route, in case I played in several events and never cashed.
Stepping up is, as I wrote earlier, primarily a function of internal drive. Some guys want to, others don't feel the need to. It would help, however, to have criteria that provide guidance on when someone should make the switch. But there should not be a rule to do it.
Cheers, Steve
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Stan Pratt
Admin
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/07 12:40
This is just personal opinion now and has nothing to do with the ratings or tournament structure.
Personally, I would say if someone has 10+ 1sts or 2nds and their rating is in the top 98 percentile of the division they've been playing in that they seriously consider moving up. Obviously they are consistent enough and have the competitive fire to play at the next level. http://www.santacruzdisc.com
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James Brennan
Grand
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/07 16:31
Everett:
I knew you weren't talking about me, since I'm currently only rated 920 and have only won twice, but maybe you will be next year (when my rating skyrockets up above 950 and I have a few more wins under my belt ) I was just trying to give a different perspective on the situation because I thought your accusations may have been misplaced. Your point about 10+ first place trophies is not lost on me (or I think anyone else), and I do agree completely with Stan on that.
As you can see from the other responses though, moving up vs. sandbagging really is a gray area in a lot of cases, and I don't think there will ever be a ratings cap to fix it completely. In looking for guidelines though, I recommend not looking so hard at the ones for "Pros playing Am", and look a bit harder at the actual PDGA ratings breaks for divisional play. You may also want to consider where your own rating places you before yelling "sandbagger" at the people playing in a division two tiers higher than where your rating would place you. I knew they shouldn't have kept that "Recreational" moniker when making the ratings changes this year because I also knew what sort of connotations it would carry with it. I think they need to completely get rid of the divisional names and just use colors or numbers for that reason alone, let alone all the guys who will absolutely refuse to play Intermediate regardless of their rating simply because of the perception that it's somehow "stepping down".
I personally tend to differ from the general opinion I've seen that there should not be a ratings cap on the highest amateur divisions, but I can gurantee you that if they were capped, they would be capped at AT LEAST 970. Here's why: If the highest amateur divisions are capped, some amateurs are being told they MUST compete against players rated over 1000. It's bad enough to tell an amateaur they must play pro, so if you're going to do that, you had better only tell it to the best amateurs.
While I do like your idea of an "Intermediate Masters" division, there is already a vocal [minority, I hope] force on the PDGA message boards decrying Advanced Masters as a "double-bagger" division, and generally wanting to do away with many of the divisions already in existence. It seems they feel there is just too much catering to players who feel somehow "entitled" in the PDGA. While there are some reasonably good points made, I personally think they're blowing things way out of proportion myself, but you said it yourself: "a chance of winning". Who says anyone is entitled to a chance of winning? To have a chance of winning, you have to be able to play well enough to beat the course better than your peers. If you can't do that, you're either in the wrong division or your expectations are too high.
Like Stan, this got away from me and I rambled on way more than I intended. Sorry about that....
- JPB
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Forum 
Play disc golf, bring your kids/family and enjoy being outside. Regarding tournaments, pick the right level (i.e. A, B, C tier or non-sanctioned) and be prepared for how competition changes with different tiers.
There will always be people who cannot work on their game but still want to play tournaments, and there will also be older newcomers. To lump them with a few AM I aged-in players is not really a fun prospect. I would not be surprised that by 2015 there is an AM Master II division.
