Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/04 08:57
I'll second those commendations.
I still say there's nothing wrong with playing in the division in which your rating places you, unless there's no ratings cap on your division and you're obviously taking advantage of that situation. I understand that there's a fair amount of "gray area" for the divisions which have no ratings cap (MA1 & MM1 especially), but whether someone is sandbagging or not becomes apparent after a while regardless.
I just don't think these guys playing MM1 with ratings of 942, 945, 946, & 947 are sandbagging. My opinion is that, while those ratings are approaching that "gray area" for MM1, they are by no means clearly taking advantage of the situation.
Would I like them to move up? Of course I would, but that's more because I don't want them beating me in my division than any sort of objective reasoning that they don't belong in MM1.
This last sentence is the original point I was trying to get across to Everett. I think if he was being honest with himself, he would likely see this may be the real reason why he's not happy with the situation.
This is all, of course, just my opinion and I've been proven wrong before!
Cheers & CHINGS,
- JPB
P.S. btw, "if you don't win you go back?" What if you're DFL?
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Everett Lyons
Grand
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/04 10:23
Well, the guys we're talking about have been playing 7-10 years or more. People are breaking into this sport daily. I'm trying to figure out where I fit in. I feel like I would be sand-bagging in REC, or INT...however, when I compete in intermediate, this is where lots of good players join the PDGA and grab the cash before they go to AM-1. The ADV Masters is supposed to be a protected division, but I think it is abused by some. That is my opinion. If by chance someday I am good enough to play Pro....I will. I won't hang out in lower divisions to collect multitudes of trophies. (Some of the guys were talking about have won many 1st and 2nd place trophies already).
James, it's true that part of my reason for wanting them to "step up" is bettering my chances of placing, but most of it is based on ratings and my opinion of how the ratings work, and fairness, and the spirit of competition.
Then again, I've been wrong before (once, I think), and I'm new to this sport, so maybe I should just shut up and be happy that I'm alive and able to play disc golf as well as I am.
Q: How many 1st/2nd place trophies should one get before stepping up a level?
-Everett
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James Brennan
Grand
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/04 13:34
Everett:
Those are some good points, but I don't know if that's the right question. Also, even if it were, I don't think there's an answer that works for everyone.
While I wouldn't question your point that Adv. Masters is abused by some, there really isn't any hard and fast rule for moving from Advanced to Open (for Masters or the non-age protected divisions.) Some people may never move to Open. They may have philisophical objections, or may never think they are good enough.
There's a parallel situation between MA1 (Advanced) and MPO (Open).
The simple fix would, of course, be to put a ratings cap on the lower division, but I don't think the PDGA will ever do that because I don't think they want to force anyone to move from an amateur to professional division. My personal opinion is that every division should have a ratings cap, but I seem to be in the minority on that one.
As for where you fit in, I think MM1 (Advanced Masters) fits you fine, as your rating does not reflect your true abillity, imo. Intermediate would be OK too, but I'm not sure you'd be as happy playing that division.
In my opinion, sandbagging is not something that has hard and fast rules when there isn't a clear cap to the division. It can be obvious, but there are also quite a few "gray areas" that make it quite questionable sometimes. I also think this sport has its share of misconceptions and downright wrong harrassment type situations regarding sandbagging. Unfortunately, it also has a fair share of actual sandbaggers that have a tendency to perpetuate the whole scene.
It's actually quite an interesting social phenomenon....
Back to your question though: A: I sure hope it's more than two.
Shut up? Yeah, you should shut up sometimes; so should I, but I'm not sure if this is one of those times (I'm expecting one of the other forum users to jump in here at any time and clarify THAT for us though and tell us both to shut up.)
Going back to your original claim that these guys are sandbagging, I really think it's close for some of them, but not so much for the others (no, I won't say which.) The thing is, for all we know they're holding out for Worlds and will move up after that. In other words, while I don't agree with you, I don't think you're too far off base either. I think these guys are mainly in that "gray area".
Yeah, you may be wrong; I might be too. We probably both are to a certain degree, but there isn't much black and white here and I see a lot of gray (usually more when looking in the mirror.)
- JPB
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James Brennan
Grand
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/04 13:34
Deleted duplicate post. Seems to be a bit of trouble with the server today.
P.S.
If you don't get your Wraith back see me. I might have one for you.
- JPB
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Scott Kendall
Legend
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/04 13:51
.....
So what do you do when you're DFL OVERALL TWICE?? that was my first Otter Open AND Master's Cup 2004(I did beat the women - BIOTCHES!) , should I have quit after that? (I felt like it, for a day, but that day ended)
This will be my 4th Master's Cup, 2nd playing Masters, so if you beat me after your 10th tour, Big WOOP. I never cashed in AM2, so why am I playing Advanced Masters?
I have always said... I would rather be the worst of the best, than the best of the worst.
I guess what it really comes down to, is the guys who are really serious about the SPORT and the proliferation of the sport, simply play PRO eventually. Which is where Everett hopes to play, as do I.
I just think I should win or (at least) place once or twice in Advanced before I move up, is that wrong?
I simply don't understand being ABLE to compete, and choosing to NOT go for the glory.... Why play for plastic?
If there were REAL money at the PRO level, baggers would not exist.
If I could ONLY make the middle of the pack in Open Masters, I would be a bad-ass MOFO.
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James Brennan
Grand
Re:Sand-Bagging - 2008/04/04 15:54
Scott:
I think that's it in a nutshell. It's a matter of whether or not you feel like you're competitive in a division.
That distinction is different for different people.
For you, it seems middle of the pack in Open Masters is competitive. I wouldn't argue that point, but would venture that, for others, middle of the pack is not good enough. I'm not going to make a judgment as to what is right or wrong because I don't think there is one. I would personally tend to agree with your own feelings of what is competitive, but am not going to say that the guy that needs to be in the upper half to feel competitive is necessarily wrong in his beliefs.
That said, there does seem to be a certain attitude of entitlement among some players who feel they should be able to always win or place to feel competitive. At some point, those guys become sandbaggers.
DFL overall? Twice?
Yeah, you should have just given up and found a new hobby. J/K, I would never, ever recommend that someone just quits, especially this game that I love so much!
Cheers (&CHINGS!),
- JPB
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